Participant #1:
Welcome to Lift and Love conversations where we are building a supportive culture around LGBTQ families in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latterday Saints. I'm Alison Dayton from Lift and Love, and I will show you how to lean into your sturgeon of discomfort to deepen and grow your testimony of Jesus Christ. And I am Jenny Hunter of Jenny Hunter coaching. I will help you identify obstacles that could get in the way of sustaining healthy relationships and realizing the blessings of being an LGBTQ family. Each week, we will bring you lessons we've learned through our own lives, the experiences of families we've worked with, and conversations with amazing experts.

Participant #1:
Hello. Our lift and love community. We are so excited because we have a special guest with us today. Right, Alison? We're excited. We have Jess Brew of Husband in law with us, and we've been talking about getting together this way for a long time. Justin, it's been a minute. Yeah, it has been. We got to meet each other at the BYU Pride Night event right. At school, sort of, which was super fun. And I got to meet your husband, and so excited. So we're happy to have you on. I am so excited to be here. I love getting to talk to people that I listen to on their podcast. I'm not just talking at them, not always. Or thinking about what you want to say exactly the same way. Okay, Jess, let's talk about where how did you get here? We were just talking about your company. Yeah, let's talk about what here is. Jess was married to a man. Let me have you. Rather than me trying to do it, let me give this the history kind of wrap that up. Okay. So what brought me here to this moment of Lift and Love, and where I am at in life now is I got married to my first husband when I was 20, and he was a return missionary. And we met each other. We went on our first date, and we're together every day after that. Anytime we could be together, we were together. We fell hard and fast. We met in February, and we got married that next December. And he had told me before we got married that he looked at pornography. We'd had a whole conversation about that and all those things. But then six months into our marriage, I stumbled across all this pornography. Like, it just started popping up on our computer because he'd been looking at it, and that's what happened. And yeah. And I realized in that moment, it is all gay porn. Like, it's all men. There are no women to be found in all this pornography. And I was processing that and trying to understand what that meant. And obviously, assuming at that point that my husband is gay and not all men I always want to caveat this. Not all men that look at gay porn are gay, but that was for me and my knowledge at that point, that's what that meant. And I asked my husband when he came home from work that night, I asked Steve, I said, hey, are you gay? I found all this gay pornography. And he like, totally shut down. And he says, now, he's like, that is the first time I had ever let myself think those words, I am gay. I am gay. But he was still in denial. He told me. No, I'm not gay. I just always felt that I was showing more respect to women if I wasn't looking at them. And that's kind of the story. He had fed himself since he was ten, 1112 years old when he started looking at pornography. And so he still hadn't come to terms with that until about a year later. I kind of started processing the fact that that might be what's going on at that point, but about a year later, he was in counseling, and counter was like, okay, well, these other things you're talking about are an issue, but the real issue is that you're gay. And at that point, he really started to accept it, and we started having an open dialogue about it in our marriage. We were a year and a half into our marriage. We were very happy, and I say an open dialogue. It was as open as Steve was ready to be at that point. It came in waves of him being comfortable talking about it, which was fine. I think it was a good progression for both of us. We stayed married. We were married for seven years. We had a daughter five years into our marriage, after years of trying and going through infertility treatments and all those things. So it was very much an intentional thing. We stayed married. He ended up having an affair just like right before our seven year wedding anniversary. And at that point, he was just so confused. He, in some ways, hoped that he would do this thing. He would engage with this man and it would feel wrong and it would feel horrible, and he would be able to just walk away. And instead he just felt whole. He was like, there's like this part of me that I've been missing that I just all of a sudden felt right to me, and I understood. And that very much changed the dynamic of our relationship at that point. We tried to stay married for a while longer and tried to work through that. In fact, we ended up getting divorced, and then we dated again for another six months, trying to work it out because he was so torn of who he had been raised to be and thought he should be, and now trying to figure out life without me, with a different relationship with our daughter than he thought he would have, and a different relationship with the church. He did eventually leave the church, but he was just so conflicted. And today, Steve and I are great friends after my husband he is my best friend. He knows me, I would say probably better than anybody, because we lived together for seven years, and we have a daughter together, and we've been very intentional about staying close and the relationship that we have so that our daughter can have a good relationship with both of her parents where she doesn't feel as much stress from divorce and coparenting and all those things. But it has been one of my greatest successes in life. I consider my relationship with Steve to be the success, and now my relationship with my husband and his relationship with Steve and all of that is truly one of the greatest gifts I've been given, and not just because we're divorced and co parent, but because I get to love this man that lives a life completely different than I do. And I got to go through that process with him. I watched the struggle so up close. I mean, I watched Steve fight to do all of the things, to check all of the boxes. And you hear this so often, and I know I've heard you guys talk about this, where our LGBT brothers and sisters are trying to well, I'm going to the temple, and I'm reading my scriptures, and I'm serving and my calling, and I'm doing everything I can, as perfect as I can, but nothing's changing. I'm not changing. I still have this innate part of me that is who I am, and trying to love themselves and see the good in themselves through that. And I feel like that was one of the greatest opportunities I was given to help Steve see the good in him, that he was still a wonderful man. All of the reasons that I married him were still there, like, he was still this person that I wanted to be with. And so it was an interesting and unique process to go through that. And I've been able to learn how to love people on a different level, people who are different than me, who don't live a life that we see the path in the church that we're supposed to go on, but to love people who aren't on that path in a new way. And so there you go. This is such a great introduction to what we're talking about. Everything in there, and I have a thousand questions. I know there's a lot to unpack in there. I know. And it's so good because, Jess, we have a lot of moms and women who and men who reach out and say, what do I do? I just found out my spouse is gay, or my spouse is struggling to reconcile their gender. Whatever it is, they come. And Jenny and I, we don't know that path, and few people do that are willing to talk about it in such great open ways. I know you talked about just like it's just like you could tell you've done the work because there's no pain like you have done work of having that grief that you've gone through. I'm sure of the marriage ending. But then that's such a cleansing part process because you can't go through that and then without then giving that great gift of having a new dynamic with Steve and a new relationship of what needed to be to raise your daughter together. That's my first question. Because when you speak, you speak with genuine compassion for him. So a lot of times and this happens with mothers of LGBTQ children or women who are married to men who are it's such a crushing blow to self confidence, to who they are as a person, who they are in the church, who they show up as in always, what happened? It's so good now. Did you just feel this confidence right from the get go? No. They were like, you're, you are not perfect. No. And that's one of the things I always tell people. I'm like. Listen, we are Penny. What? Just turned twelve yesterday, and we separated a week before Penny turned two. So I'm ten years down the road of us actually separating. But then I had six years before that. So I'm 16 years into this of processing this and going through it. One of the things I have to say is that I did have a natural gift to recognize that this was not about me. Amen. Who do you think that came from? A lot of confidence. It is a spiritual gift and it can be taught and it can be learned. And that's why I'm so passionate about what I do, is because I also greatly understand and know the heartache of spouses, of partners who are experiencing this, and parents on some level. But when we can understand who we are on the other side of that and there were things that I knew. I knew that I was the daughter of my heavenly parents who loved me. Like, that is something that is so ingrained into my heart and my soul that brings peace in the hardest of times for me that it reminds me of my worth. And that you know what I knew when I found all that gay porn on the computer that my life was not going to be what I thought it was. I knew that in that moment and I knew that I could make this about me and about how horrible this is. And it was horrible in ways. But also I watched as I had these conversations with Steve and saw the pain in him as well, and that I could add to that pain by putting on him, well, you've done this to me. You've ruined what I thought my life would look like. You have done all this, or I could create a relationship with him in that moment of we're both mourning what we thought we would have because he letting go of a life he thought he was going to have, too. I mean, he didn't marry me with the intent of divorcing me or coming out or any of those things. He married me with the intent of continuing forward. And so we were both mourning. And I think when we can see that there's a morning process for both of us that both sides of this, that it allows for there to be love and connection in a deeper way. And again, that was a gift that I was able to see. And I'm not saying there weren't moments when I handled that poorly and added to his pain or that he added to mine at times, like, there were definitely those moments, but because we both could see that we were fumbling through this together, we were able to come back together and say, hey, this is the key, I think, right here. I come back and say, hey, Steve, I am really sorry I said that, and I put this on you. And yes, I am feeling these things, but I am responsible for how I'm feeling. You aren't, and I'm sorry, and here's how I want to try and do this better, or here's what I could use from you right now that would be helpful, but taking that ownership of where we've put our own pain onto somebody else, I think goes a long way. And not that it can't be acknowledged that, yeah, they did hurt us, like, that's important, but hopefully I'm saying that. But that makes sense in a way. That makes sense that we yes, we took responsible for your own emotions. I left the fact even like, you're, like, apologize, but also you still honored yourself by asking requests from him of what you need it. I think that's all really most empowered in this situation and in that empowered, I want the spouse to feel empowered. I want the other person, I want everybody involved to feel empowered, like they have a say, like they have a voice. And I think that was the key is to be able to have that voice. At a young age, I remember hearing talks to church and stuff about asking why me? And how we get stuck in that. And I remember making a mental note that I'm never going to ask myself, why me? Instead, I am going to ask, what can I learn from this? What can I gain? What opportunity is here? And I think that can be so powerful in this situation of saying, okay, I've been doing my best to live the commandments and keep my covenants and do what I can my best. It's not going to be perfect. It does not have to be perfect, but I'm doing what I have felt impressed to do on my heart. And therefore there's a purpose in this thing, in this moment, and trusting that purpose because, you know, you are a son or daughter or you're a being who's been created by heavenly parents who love you. And so there is meaning behind what you're going through it. And so I think that when you can suck onto those things and really understand your emotions and process those and then come to the conversation, it's a whole big thing. But yeah, I think it makes a huge difference because a lot of times people in your situation and I often hear it from the LGBTQ persons experience, my wife is so mad. The betrayal. Well, actually, I hear from both the betrayal, all of them. While those feelings are going to come, I'm sure the idea that, wow, this is brutal and I'm certainly going to learn a lot from it, I think those lift us up out of that kind of wallowing that we do. And the spinning out. Yeah. Because when you're asking why me? That's keeping you in victim mentality, right? Yes. Question why not you right. That's not a helpful being. A victim is not helpful. No. Nobody likes to feel that way. But it's easily give yourself compassion because got to get through it and take the lump and be in pain. And then it's nice to have something that will actually raise you up. I think of like getting a buoy that kind of pulls you back up from underneath and brings you back up into the light. Right. And that's what that thought process does. And I think it connects you back to God because otherwise it's like, God, why did you do this? This doesn't seem like the gospel that I understand, where I feel inspired to marry someone. We marry in the temple and then everything spins into this like that plan, you know what I mean? Yeah. And in that bringing that empowerment back of knowing instead of switching that thought from why me? But to what's the purpose in this? What am I supposed to learn? Why did Heavenly Father place me here? I think that was where a lot of my power came from, of just recognizing he wanted me here for a purpose. That's an empowering feeling if you really lean into that and trust that that Heavenly Father put me here for a purpose. And also I keep thinking too, I examined a lot of my fears around this fear when I realized Steve was gay. What are my fears about staying married to him? Like, what does this change in my relationship? And understanding those so that I could honestly just let a lot of them go. What's the worst thing is going to happen? And I don't believe in dwelling on these, but I do believe in processing them a little. For me, it was like, okay, he could have an affair, but that doesn't mean our marriage is going to end, and it doesn't mean that we can't still love each other. We could end up divorced. And that was one that I'm like, I understand it's a possibility, but I'm not going there right now until we're closer to that point, if we get there. But for me, I realized that it honestly just gave me an opportunity to know my spouse, like, really well on a way that in a level that nobody else knew him because literally nobody else except his counselor knew he was gay for the seven years. At points he started telling clergy, like, once he had kind of come to terms with that, he was open with our bishops or our branch presidents, and then we had one other couple that knew that we had gone to support groups with, and then he went to a support group as well. And he did tell his mom about a year before we got divorced. But honestly, it was like, for me, I had that one friend, that other couple friend to talk to. I was going to say, like, who did it process with? Because if nobody knew, you somebody. Yeah. And so, I mean, I processed with Steve, and like I said, I try not to put that all on him, but it was also he didn't want people to know, and I wanted to respect that. And so I'm like, okay, I understand that, but you need to either be able to talk to me about it or I need to be able to talk to somebody else. And so we gradually kind of got to that point. He told me in the support groups I could talk about it, and he also recognized that if we're going through this, he kind of took that same mindset of who can we help along the way? If we're here and we can be a little more vocal about it, at least in the support groups we're going to, then maybe we can uplift people. And at this point today, that's why we talk about it. Like Steve says. Steve and I, matt is my new husband. We all are very open about our story and our relationship and all of it because we know there are other people going through this and how much it would have helped us along the way to just even hear somebody else's story, whether we're talking to other people or not. But just having that connection to somebody else's story is so powerful. It's kind of the root of what we do. Jenny right? Yeah. And I'll tell you, Jess, you're so darling, when we post this, I'm going to post the picture of you and I because you're like a foot shorter than I am, and I feel like a giant. She's got these gorgeous eyes and, like, you got to take a screenshot of her studio because I measure I know it's beautiful, the flowers behind you, and it's interesting. So one of the real testimonies I have of being the mom and the sister of gay men is that and having the kind of privilege of just meeting who I've met and knowing people and hearing their stories. And oftentimes the stories that aren't told, that aren't recorded right like that. The Lord picked really remarkable people to come out to tell their stories, to be the first blank, the first employee on campus at BYU who's gay, who's openly and proud of being gay, the first man whose brother is an apostle, you know what I mean? On remarkable people to shine the light and the way and that is you are I mean, you are like 1000 watt volt. And that's what I love about your energy and your commitment. And it's hard. You're very vulnerable and so could be under a lot of condemnation by some people. And there are people who I know will not agree with. Well, I've heard it. I mean, I've heard it over and over again that people question why I'm still friends with them. And people question all sorts of things about what I have chosen to do, what I continue to choose to do. And I just don't care because I know that I'm here for a reason. And as you're saying those things, it does take a lot of courage to speak up. And it does take I do believe that God thinks, you know, highly of us, but I also think he thinks so highly of those people who and I know you guys feel this too, who aren't ready to share their story and the people who are in the thick of it and that are there. I think it takes a to be entrusted with somebody who is queer in your life. God knew you could do it. Our heavenly parents knew you were somebody who would love this precious soul. You were the person that could keep them here on earth, that could help them see their worth, that would help them know they are loved. And as I have experienced that and loved this man, I have grown in how much I love myself and how much I love other people. And it just amplifies. And that's what love does. It just amplifies. And people also be like, well, you must still be in love with him and how can you have this relationship? It's not fair to your husband. To my husband, Matt. And Matt always says he's like, there's enough love to go around. This isn't a comparison thing. He's like, the love you have for Steve is just different than the love you have for me. He's like, it's compounds it's abundant, not scary. We always say, like I always think the difference so much of the difference in the way we handle things is your heart open or is it closed? In the scriptures, they'd say, is your heart open or is it hard? Is your heart open to loving someone? And really one of the most complicated things to work through is knowing everything about people and sometimes not great stuff about them. Not that we're talking about anyone in this particular situation, but knowing about people, the messiness of it. Yeah, the messiness, what they've done, some of the thoughts they might have, whatever, and seeing them as beloved sons and daughters of heavenly parents still, even with the hard stuff, that's serious work to be able to do that and to be able to love people through things like that. Well, and I watched as Steve shared with me some of those things that he felt were such horrible things about him, and he felt he was just one of the worst people ever because he carried these feelings that were natural and innate to him. And I just thought, I can make him feel worse about this. I have so much power in this moment, in this situation, because I'm his wife, to say, yeah, that's really horrible. Like, you know what you've been taught. Why are you doing this? Why do you feel this way? But there's a huge opportunity there to help them see that there's nothing wrong with you, like the things you're telling me. There's absolutely nothing that's making you unworthy or that's making you less of a person or that there's nothing wrong here. Like, this is just who you are. But to Steve, it was so real that he was just such a horrible person for being who he was. And if we can help somebody see that good in them, it's a beautiful thing. I remember sitting in a steak conference shortly after Steve and I were divorced and being really overwhelmed with feelings of, why am I staying friends with him? Why do I feel this need to support him so much at this point? Right after our marriage, Steve was suicidal. He would call me at night and just say, I'm done, and I would walk him through this. And so there was that. I knew I was there for that, but I also was just like, this is my whole life right now. It felt so encompassing. I couldn't do anything for anybody else because I needed to be there for Steve and for me. I needed to keep myself above. I had a brand new baby, and I had a little kid that I'm taking care of. And so my capacity right at that moment was us three. And I remember sitting in the state conference, being a little overwhelmed by that fact and feeling like, oh, but I should be serving other people. And I backed out of a calling to go to girls camp at the last minute because I was like, I can't do this. I can't leave my daughter right now. I'm too overwhelmed emotionally to show up for these girls. And as I sat there, I kept thinking of things come to me in song form, because I love music and the song, and it's a scripture too. But if you should labor all your days and bring but one soul unto him, how great she'll be your joy. And I just was at peace that this was my calling right now, at this time, if it was to bring Steve unto him. And when I say unto him, I'm in no means talking that I think Steve should come back to the church. I believe everybody needs to find the path that works for them, that brings them peace. While I find peace in the church, I don't know that for everybody right now is the right time for them to find peace in the church. And I know people will have issues with that, but that's my own thing. But for him to be able to come to himself, to just know that he was needed still here in this life, that his daughter needed him, that I needed him, that's what I was here to do at that time and to make sure my daughter was okay and to make sure I was emotionally OK and making it through. And that's enough. Sometimes, and I think often in the church, we get so concerned that we have to do more, that we need to do all the things. And that's great when you have the capacity, but you don't always have the capacity, and that is okay. Yeah. But recognizing that in that moment is the key. You're young. You were a young girl still, but you're like 27 here when we're talking. Yeah, I was 27 at that point. Right around there. 26, 27. It's young. And that's the weight of the world on you. Yeah. I mean, my whole world has been turned upside down. And it was okay in that moment to recognize that I needed that time in that space. And that's another thing I highly suggest for people, too, who are either still married or going through divorce and trying to coparent, is just recognizing it's okay to really dive into your life and relationship and what you need, what your kids need, what your spouse, your partner, your co parent needs to figure that out for a while without doing all of the things. We have to take those opportunities well and you come back out of them. Yeah, because there are moments where you just have to focus on putting your oxygen mask on before you can put anybody else's on. And I think those moments, though, are kind of part of the journey where the Lord think of how often the Lord left and went off by himself, where he needed to refuel, and they would always follow him. Having that relationship with yourself and realizing when you need to give yourself grace, that is key to surviving, really, this whole life, really, and being okay with what you need. Because, Jessica, if you haven't, then you would not be the mother and the partner perceived that you could have been at that time. No, I couldn't have. And that's one of the things I recognized. I lived on next to nothing until I got remarried. Quite honestly, because I knew for me, taking on a full time job just didn't feel right emotionally. Again, it just was too much. But I was okay with scrimping by and making it by on what we could. I mean, I worked a tiny bit. I worked 3 hours a week outside the home. I sold out of my home. I did what I needed to get by, but I made it work for me because I knew I couldn't take on that extra emotional thing. I would have if I had to. I know I could have done it if I had to. And I know there are lots of women or men who have to do that, but also figure out a way to make it work for you. We get so hung up on, like I said, checking those boxes of how it should look instead of recognizing that we can create a way to make it work for us. Yeah, but in that moment, what do you think the key is? What would you tell the listener to create? Giving themselves permission to create. That one of the things that I really believe that you need to do is dive into your feelings and figure out what it is you want most, what it is. Like I said, you might be holding fear around. What is it that you know now that your life has changed? What are the things that you need to move forward? Like, how can you move forward and create a life you still love? Like, what are the things that are the most important? I think of Renee Brown and how she has you, like, pick your values. And it's not just a one word value. You need to have a sentence around this value of well. And for me, one of my main values is that I value my emotional health. I value loving myself and loving others. Like, love is a driving force in my life. And so what does that look like now that I know? So what does that look like when my husband came out as gay? How do I now love again? How do I change the way I love? How do I change the love when he's decided he's going to leave me once he's had an affair? All of these things are this opportunity of taking my values at my core and reevaluating. I can keep my values and what I want in my life. Even when my life isn't going according to plan, the goal or the vision of what I had for my life, I still get to keep the values of that which are what we're really looking for. It's not necessarily the plan. And so I think that's been, like, a huge thing. I coach women and work with people on how to change that story we're telling ourselves, like, focusing on that and then to take bold action of what you've learned. So after you've come to figure these things out after you have some understanding around what you're feeling and what you really want, how to take action on that. Yes. Who are you becoming? I love how you said that. That's not the plan, right? But it's more focusing on how you're changing how you're showing up. I love thinking of it like if I was a character in a novel, how do I want to be that character, right. That was kind of helping me be like I want to be that character that does this and this and that helps me show up and align my value with those hard moments because you've kept having to kind of recreate that for you of how you weren't going to show up because of the wife going through it and then kind of the divorcee and the still the partner and now another recreation. Right. Of being married and balancing the triangle of all that love. And it is all about love and I love how you're like I've learned because I think that is alice and I talk about it all the time and we talk about our whole work is teaching Moms this, that don't be afraid of this. This is going to be a classroom of learning how to love in a different, higher way. And it just feels so amazing when you get there because you do feel so much closer to Christ because not that we are anywhere near how he loves, but it's almost like you've got another layer of how to do it and you can't do that without these really hard moments where you re evaluate your value system about it. One thing that I want to touch on here is because I know this is an issue for so many families that are going through this is people are often like, what am I going to tell my kids? What am I going to teach my kids in this? And I look at my daughter who is being raised in the church. She's been baptized, she goes to church with me on Sundays except when she's going to do something with her dad. But he tries to get her there as often as possible as well. But she also has, again, this love that she gets to understand that we still love people that do different things, that we can have great relationships even when maybe we don't align on all of the things, but we can align on the core values that we have or we can align on our family is important. That's what it comes down to. For Steve and I like this family is important. And so we are going to make that a priority and let go of the things we don't agree on and the little things that we could get really hung up on. I mean, there are so many things that I hear women saying. I'm like, yeah, but is that really worth fighting about? Is that really worth it in the long run. And I know it feels real and it feels huge, but being able to let those things go, I've seen this girl grow, and I'm just like, dang, this girl is going to be a powerhouse for good and for helping other people feel loved and seen and all of those things. And so I just think that if you can let go of some of the things, you can teach your kids the beauty and all this as well. Yeah, I love it, and I love how you keep it all connected to the savior and to your experience. When I said to you, do you work outside? I asked what she did, if she worked, and she's like, this is it. This is the calling and this is the job. And Jenny and I get that totally, too. Like, the feeling of being called to spread this news and this good work and to show people I love what you do because you almost effortlessly show people how to be differently than they thought they should be or would be and to show them how they can be in a situation that they never planned on. Boy, that sounds like the Savior, right? Emulate him. You do emulate him really well. Yeah, and it's work. You have to go through the emotions of, like, oh, that hurt. I'm mad at you. All of the emotions, once you get there, once you get good at going through them, it comes and goes faster. Yeah. And that's the thing, is you should feel all of those emotions. Like, there is nothing wrong with embracing all of the emotions that you're feeling and that you're carrying. But I do think it's important, like we were talking about, to not get stuck in that victim site of those emotions and instead take them and learn from them. I know that when I'm, like, feeling the things, I'm like, okay, something is heavy right now. And I have journals that I've created for this to help people as well, to go through and evaluate those emotions of what you're feeling. Okay, why am I feeling this way? What do I need to learn from this? How can I change how I'm thinking about it to make it better? Because sometimes that's all you need to do, which is hard, but also a simple thing that just involves you personally. If I can change how I'm thinking about this situation, it's going to be okay. And that was one of the main things I made a conscious, intentional effort to do, was change how I thought about my divorce and how I thought about my ex husband. I mean, I loved him, and I just need to remember that I loved him through all of the crap we were going through. Yeah, I love to ask my clients in those moments, okay, so you get divorced, but what else is true? What else was true for you was I still love him. And we will always have this love, and we will always be a family because of our daughter. And so when you focus on what else, like telling your brain the whole story, that is where it's easier to find the thoughts to move to, right? Yes. I love it. Good. So important. Okay, so what if somebody needs you? What if they're experiencing this? How did they get a hold of you? And what are you doing to help other families? Okay, so first and foremost, we have our podcast called Husband in Law, and it is hosted by my ex husband Steve, my husband Matt, and myself. And we literally go through it's a different layout than almost any other podcast you've heard of. We start, like, at the beginning of mine and Steve's relationship and the beginning of Matt and his whole story, and we just go through and tell our stories, offer what we have and what we've learned in those moments to help other people. And one of the things that we really stress is that people we're not expecting people to do it just like us. We want people to figure out what works for you. That's what we had to do. That's what we have done. And we understand to co parenting wise, we have a very different relationship with Matt sex wife. And so we get that it doesn't all work out this way, and that's not good or bad. Like, you can have a good coparenting relationship and not be best friends like Steve and I are. Totally works. So the podcast is a great place to start. We're also very active on Instagram Husband in Law as well there. That's what Steve and Matt call each other as husband in laws, where that came from. I love it. And then I do offer coaching, and I mostly work with women who are in a similar situation to me, but I also work with just people going through divorces or people who are just trying to figure out what it is they want in life. All of those things gaining clarity there. Well, we have a coloring book that I always like to put out there because I know sometimes it's hard to start conversations around just queer topics. And so we have a coloring book called Coloring Book, and it's loving, boldly, celebrating all types of love. And it has definitions in there, and we're hoping to have another volume coming out soon. So it has just some of, like, LGBTQ terms and then as well, it's real loving pages. Yeah, it's very light. Like, it's fun. One of my favorite pages was, like, the drag queen page. They're just cute. There's a picture of Steven Penny in there at Pride that we had the animator or the illustrator turn into a picture. Just easy ways to show that you're an ally to have in your home, to show your kids that you're a safe place any of those things. I firmly believe after watching Steve go through everything he's gone through, that if we can help our kids know that they are safe in our homes, exactly what you guys are doing, they can avoid some of the pain and heartache that Steve has gone through and that other couples like us have been through. And even though I say pain and heartache, I wouldn't trade up for the world. We've learned and we've grown, and Steve says the same thing. He's like, I would not be who I am today if I had not had all these experiences. So, yeah, those are some things we have to offer. I do have, like, a free workbook as well that can get you started. Just called Change Your Story, change Your Life about identifying where I encourage people to find one place where you can change the story you're telling yourself to start showing up to your life in a way that feels better to you.

Participant #1:
That is exactly what we all need, especially families that find themselves in your situation, because very few people can help in ways that, like you said, you needed people to be your people, and it's great that you can be people for others. I love it. There are a lot of families out there that are quietly, painfully going through this. And to have a resource like you who was able to figure out how not to lose yourself. Because that's the challenge if you're the wife. Because it's just that cleaving is not there in the normal marriage and the worthiness. And you just feel and so it's almost like the Lord gave you an extra dose of that confidence because you've just turned all of the messiness of this situation into something so beautiful and giving back and love and even such a goodness. So many good fruits. Like. Really amazing. And I think everybody could do that. In whatever situation you're in, the messiness is not always going to be there working through it. You're going to get to the other side and you're going to really understand of why you had to go through this, which I probably do now better, right? Yeah. I mean, I remember when Penny was six months old, and I was like, let's have another kid right now. I've gotten pregnant naturally. Let's do this. And having this impression that I would not have more children and just knowing that and that my calling in life, mine and Steve, would be to share what we had experienced and been through. And at that point, I had no idea, no idea where we'd actually go, we'd actually be doing. When you got that impression, were you like, no, I was here for it. And again, that's another gift I felt like I was given, like, okay, I am going to enjoy this baby and my one little kid as much as I can. And Steve and I continue to try to have another kid. Matt and I have tried to have another kid, just not my I'm not cut out for it, left with the grandbabies. But I think just like, yes, this is what I was sent here to do and I love it. And I hear you say that not to lose yourself in it and I'm like, yes, don't lose yourself. Like you still get to love yourself through all this process anyway. So many things. But yeah, it's beautiful. I love your energy. I was going to say if there was one word I would describe you and just and I just met is joy, the mount. You are joy and that is what we're supposed to come here for. And I really believe your joy because you have aligned with the savior and you have gained that real worth and strength from the only source that really is the peace and the joy. Right. We get messed up thinking our worth does come from our husband or from our children and that's where you have to retell the story, right. Just like your homework. And the narrative has to be really always aligned with the Savior and then that fullness and that joy is your gift and you're spreading it to others. So thank you so much for all thank you for sharing this. Thank you. We are so happy to have you here finally. It's too bad we can't all be in one room, but I want to take a picture. Don't go anywhere. Let's ask our question. Okay, Jess, what does it mean to you to lift and love? So for me, it means to help people feel seen and see the good in themselves. I think that one of the greatest gifts we can give ourselves is to see the good in ourselves and then to give that to somebody else to help them see the good in themselves and feel seen is just life changing. I love these answers. We need to make a list of everybody's answers. They are fun.

Participant #1:
Yeah. You've lifted and loved us by just being with you today. And thank you so much for coming on our listeners. We go look her up on Instagram and just following her account, bringing more joy and listening to the podcast. I haven't listened yet, so I am going to go all in. I'm dying to hear now with episode one. Okay. I'm going to tell you I'm flying tomorrow. I'm binging the whole day with you, Jess. Enjoy. Yes. I still looking forward to our listeners. Our community is now open, so go if you want to find it. Go to liftandlove. orgCOMMUNITY to find information. We're super excited to have you join us in there and have an amazing day. Thank you for being with us today. Thank you. Bye. Thanks, ladies. Thank you for joining our podcast. Don't forget to subscribe to the Lift and Left podcast and if you like what we share, we would be so grateful if you would leave us a five star rating. For more tips and resources, follow us on Instagram and Facebook under Liftandlove.org and Jennyhunner Coaching. You can also go to lyftandlove.org for loads of information and entry into our free support group. If you're interested in personal coaching, sign up@jennyhuttercoaching.com. The first appointment is free. But most importantly, remember you are not alone in this journey. We are building a community thriving and faithful LGBTQ families who are here to lift and love you.